LoginA closer look at Montana's housing "miracle"
In this episode, I talk with Montana state senators Forrest Mandeville (R) and Ellie Boldman (D) about the bipartisan housing reforms their state has passed over the last two legislative sessions — reforms so sweeping YIMBYs have dubbed them the "Montana miracle." We discuss the unlikely coalition supporting the bills, the impact of the policies, and the generational divide that increasingly separates YIMBYs from NIMBYs. Also: why "housing is the new weed"!
(PDF transcript)
(Active transcript)
Text transcript:
David Roberts
All right, everyone. Hello, welcome to Volts for July 9, 2025, "A closer look at Montana's housing 'miracle'." I'm your host, David Roberts. It doesn't get as much attention from national media as coastal states like New York and California. But no state has been harder hit by the national housing crisis than Montana.
In-migration, already healthy, was turbocharged by Covid and its wake, bringing in tens of thousands of new residents, many of them wealthy buyers looking to work from home or own a second home. Supply did not keep up, so working-class locals rapidly got outbid. The median home price in the state has close to doubled since 2020, and according to the National Association of Realtors, its housing market is now the nation's least affordable on a per capita basis.
However! The good news is that the crisis was so clear and so severe that it spurred a remarkable burst of action. A governor-assembled task force released its report and recommendations in 2022. In 2023, the legislature passed an eye-popping agenda of deep and far-reaching housing reforms. And then earlier this year, it did it again.
YIMBYs — many of them in blue states where action of this speed and scope sounds like a fairy tale — have dubbed this run of legislation the "Montana miracle." Today, I am thrilled to be joined by two of the architects of that bipartisan miracle: Senator Forrest Mandeville, a Republican representing Columbus, and Senator Ellie Boldman, a Democrat representing Missoula. Both have long experience with housing and land use issues and have sponsored some of the recent legislation. We are going to get into the reforms, how they happened, and what can be learned.
With no further ado, Senator Forrest Mandeville, Senator Ellie Boldman, welcome to Volts. Thank you so much for coming.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Thank you. It's great to be here.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Thanks for having us.
David Roberts
This is great. I'm very excited about this. I don't get to talk about a lot of good news these days. So, I want to start with just a little bit of background. Senator Mandeville, you've been in Montana politics for a while. You were a representative before you were a senator. So, you have been in state government as this housing crisis has unfolded. You know, I've seen the statistics, so I'm just sort of curious, like how is this housing crisis manifesting to you from the inside? What does it look like?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, it's really something that's hit every part of the state. Prior to Covid, I would say it was more of a localized issue where there would be pockets of housing bubbles. Housing issues, you know, during the Bakken, eastern Montana was hit with a housing crisis. The western part of the state would have its issues from time to time. But it really seems that post-Covid, there's kind of this "Zoom boom", this Covid rush, even call it "blue state refugees" coming to Montana to get away from some of the policies they didn't like back where they were from.
And it really caused this housing crunch statewide. And I work in land use planning, so that's my day job. I do planning for local governments.
David Roberts
I should have said this in the introduction, but let me just get it out there as scene setting: The Montana legislature only meets for 90 days every two years. So, you all have day jobs, in other words.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, they call us a citizen legislature. I think there's only what, four, just a handful of us.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, so it really seems like post-Covid, this thing hit us statewide and we were not ready. The state was not ready from a regulatory standpoint. And it was really an "all hands on deck" situation to be able to address this crisis that we were facing. And it became politically salient. You know, usually the land use stuff is kind of in the back corner.
David Roberts
Yeah, it's a little technocratic, normally.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, yeah. Stuff that the wonks deal with. And normal people care, but don't really care. So in 2021, 2022, 2023, it really became a statewide issue that everyday people cared about. I do have to say we did a lot of coalition building ahead of time. I'm a member of the Montana Association of Planners, and I know we've been working on reforms probably since 2017. The planners had been kicking around ideas that we wanted to see and had a working group kind of thinking, "If planners were in charge of writing Montana's laws, how would we want the subdivision statute to read? How would we want zoning to work on a statewide level? How should annexation policy be handled?"
And we'd really been working on that for a while, but we had not been able to get good momentum to the point where we could get legislation enacted until the 2023 session. That was leading up to when Governor Gianforte had created his housing task force.
David Roberts
They do say politics is about being ready when your moment comes.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Absolutely.
David Roberts
Boy, did it come. So, I should just say by way of background — like, no one cares — but I lived in Montana for, I want to say, like six years in the late 1990s and specifically got my master's at the University of Montana. I lived in Missoula.
Senator Ellie Boldman
All right, Go Grizz.
David Roberts
Yeah.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Woo.
David Roberts
Do you know — I worked at McKenzie River Pizza.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, it's all still there.
David Roberts
Are you familiar with the Old Post? The bar? The Old Post?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Obviously. Obviously, David, yes.
David Roberts
I lived immediately above the Old Post for several years. I got to hear them throw their bottles out at three in the morning every morning for many years. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. That's just by way of letting you both know that Montana has a special place in my heart. But Senator Boldman, so you were on this task force. Tell us a little bit about how that came together and what it did.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, yeah. So, I'm a lawyer by trade, and I've served in the legislature since 2011. So, it's my seventh term, my third governor. Montana politics has always sort of been thought of as a purple state until quite recently where we have large Republican majorities in the legislature. And then, for the last 16 years before Governor Giaforte, we had actually a Democratic governor. And so, when Governor Giaforte was elected, I certainly was walking into a different dynamic for me politically. But one of the very first phone calls, literally the day after Governor Giaforte was elected, he called me on my cell, to which I said, "Governor, I didn't even know you had my cell number.
And one of the first things we talked about was the housing crisis and whether I'd be interested in working together to try to build coalitions to really address it. That was something he knew I was very interested in, that I had worked on the professional and personal side in housing development. It's something that he wanted to see more attention at the legislature about. What sparked my interest and his passion was the diversity of his conversation. So, he was really dedicated to that, my community — and David, where you were at the University of Montana.
You know, I represent a lot of folks on the left that work in this area. In Montana, I think people think of Montana as if we're all home on the range, but a lot of us actually represent very urban areas and university towns. The housing crisis, from my perspective, of course, involved a lot of working-class folks, a lot of students. But the governor was also really interested in rural housing issues and tribal issues. About 10% of the population of the state of Montana is native, indigenous Montanans. But he also concentrated on different kinds of housing needs, including mental health, addiction, and crisis beds.
That was another area, as an attorney, that I had a particular interest in. And so, let's just say a diverse friendship was formed on that day. After that, the governor created a task force, an appointed mechanism that was able to then work with us in the interim. Because as you noted, the Montana legislature only meets every other year for 90 days, from about January to early May. This allowed us to work in the interim to really talk about policy.
David Roberts
These are politicians and professionals in the field and academics?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Totally. What I liked about it is that I tend to believe, and I know that Senator Mandeville and I have in common, that government often can't and doesn't have all the solutions and certainly shouldn't do it all. The idea that public-private partnerships could work, that we could find incentivizing tools for the private sector, and then of course, policy reform that needed to happen. He brought in a lot of private sector folks, but with a nod, I think, to make sure that public sector housing developments were also present and at the table.
The wonky nerds, like Senator Mandeville, the planning folks, were at the table, and the folks that had money. In Montana, again, a state that's as large as all of New England with just over a million people, we needed out-of-state money. We needed developers to come in and help us solve problems. There wasn't enough money in Montana to build the kind of housing that we needed. Some of those folks were also at the table. Then, of course, over the months and year after that, the first tranche of bills came through the '23 session, dubbed of course, the "Montana miracle."
David Roberts
Yeah, an important bit of background here is that a lot of housing-related bills came up in 2021 and were shot down and lost. Then there was this task force in 2022, and then in 2023, it all came back and passed. To me, that, in addition to the policy miracle, which we're going to get to in just a second, looks like something like a political miracle. I would like to hear more about, I mean, was the task force itself that... Because like, I'll just say, you all have been in government long enough to know that when you hear "I'm going to form a task force to study solutions to this problem," very often that means "I want to avoid dealing with the problem and I want to look like I'm doing something."
But here, there was a task force, and then it worked. I guess I'm baffled by political success, I guess is what I'm saying here. So, like, what changed from 2021 to 2023? Was it really the task force? Was it really that galvanizing?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
I think that a lot of the bills in '21 were not very well thought out. I think everyone realized there was a problem and did not know how to go about solving it. So, '21 was the year I was out of the legislature, so I was kind of watching from afar, but it seemed like there were a lot of well-intentioned bills that just didn't do what I think they were intended to do. That's why I think the task force was important to kind of think through what we want to solve and what's the right way to solve them.
That's what we were able to bring in '23 and get past because, at that point in '23, we weren't a bunch of people trying to solve a problem, not working together. We were a bunch of people trying to solve the same problem, but working together to do it.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Right. Yep.
David Roberts
And working from a common document, a common understanding.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, and you know, I have to say I agree with you that I tend to find task forces, you know, a little bit of a circle jerk. But in this case, it really didn't operate that way because of the members and the coalition building was so diverse and inclusive, and then it kind of kept the momentum going. I think that's really key to the '21 to '23 to '25 to ongoing. And you know, I saw on whatever we call Twitter now, I saw one of your listeners had a question about "Why even have this podcast?"
Well, it's because, you know, with great hopes, we can see the momentum continue and not just in Montana, but replicated around the nation. And I do have a lot of thoughts on why this worked, why it can continue to work, and why there continues to be a lot of sometimes NIMBY roadblocks that will continue to happen.
David Roberts
I want to get into all that, but first, let's put on record here what happened in 2023. So, literally, there are too many bills to describe them all. But just for listeners, just a couple of the bills. One legalizes multifamily and mixed-use in all commercially zoned districts of cities.
Like that alone is huge. Another one, any lot where a single-family home is allowed, an ADU is allowed. That's huge. And you can't mandate any off-street parking. You can't put any requirements on it. You have to allow an ADU for every single-family home. Boom. Another one says anywhere a single-family home is allowed, you can have attached or detached duplexes. Boom. That's huge. Like, all of those are individually huge. And then we come to Senator Mandeville, SB382, which is, I think, at once kind of the most complicated, but also I think probably in the big picture, the most meaningful reform.
Despite all those others being huge, I think this is probably the hugest. And this is your bill that you sponsored. So, just talk us through what 382 does.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Sure. So, Senate Bill 382 from '23, that was the Land Use Planning Act (LUPA). This really was the brainchild of a lot of Montana planners working with the Governor's Housing Task Force and the ideas that came out of that. One thing that is unusual for Montana is, the Montana League of Cities and Towns was very involved and supportive of the Land Use Planning Act.
David Roberts
That's unusual — I've been doing a lot of these podcasts lately about these reforms, and it's usually the Association of Cities that is the big opponent.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
This goes back to some of that coalition building we did. And we have a very knowledgeable head of the League of Cities and Towns in Montana who's a land use attorney and a planner, and she sees the big picture on this, saw the need for some reforms, and was very involved in making sure we did this right. So, what we did was we tried to kind of coalesce the major land use statutes in Montana. So, we have the growth policy, which is a master plan statute. We have zoning statutes, we have subdivision statutes, we have annexation statutes.
They all operate independently of each other. They all require repetitive public processes, repetitive public hearings, looking at a different aspect of the development, but looking at the same development as a whole. So, you could have a public hearing on whether or not to change the zoning on something from agriculture to residential or from residential to mixed use, go through that public hearing process, but you also have to have a public hearing process on creating the lots, going through the subdivision review. You have to have a public hearing on the annexation. So, we said, "Let's do our planning up front."
Imagine that, right? Planning before you get to the development.
David Roberts
A bold proposal: Plan up front.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yep. So, what the LUPA does is require the master planning process on the front end. And as part of that, that land use plan, you have to do a housing study, a housing needs assessment, and then again, a revolutionary, but should be common sense, is you have to zone to allow the amount of housing that you think you're going to need according to your plan.
David Roberts
So it's each individual city doing this that you're talking about?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
It is, yeah. We targeted this at the largest cities and large counties, which is really where we're having this issue. We have seen other communities opt in because they see the value in this.
David Roberts
It's cities 5,000 and up, at least some of them.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Cities 5,000 and up in counties of 70,000 and up. Yeah. So, there's about a dozen or so communities statewide that are following this, including some that have opted in. But then we said, "If you're a developer and you're following the plan, you're following the zoning, then you've gone through that public process," to try to target some of that repetitiveness. We also had zoning reforms baked into the Land Use Planning Act, the LUPA. So, we created a menu of options that cities would have to choose from.
David Roberts
Yeah, I saw this. They have to choose five reforms out of the — it didn't say how long the list is.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
5 out of 14.
David Roberts
Interesting. That's really interesting. So, at least five?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yes, so it did — and I think this was a big selling point for the League of Cities and Towns — it did keep some of that local control mechanism in there. But it also, and this is where we had a lot of the support from the YIMBY community, was it did have that state-mandated pushing them towards some of these reforms.
David Roberts
So, they have to choose 5 out of the 14. What are some of those? Give us some examples.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Increasing the amount of lot coverage you can have. A lot of the stuff you had talked about earlier. Allowing more multifamily, allowing up to fourplexes in single-family zones, increasing height limits, just a lot of those common sense reforms that we always try to push and the pushback is always, "This doesn't work for our community." So that's why we said, "Well, pick some, pick five of these. Something has to work for you."
David Roberts
Yeah, that's clever. And do you agree that although this is not probably the easiest to understand, this is probably going to be the biggest practical change in land use? Just simplifying all these processes down. I mean, it's always made sense to me that if you have a plan and some requirements and someone proposes a project that fits the requirements, that should be it.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
That should be what you wanted, right? That should be what you've planned for and what your infrastructure needs, what your community needs, you want in this area. And if you're doing what everyone generally agrees on is desired in an area, then, yeah, go build it. Let's quit talking about it. Go do it.
David Roberts
I live in Seattle, where, my God, the amount of process is maddening. So, I have great sympathy with this. So, that was '23, and that alone, that slate of bills alone, is amazing. And here's — I was reading a summary of all this on Sightline's website and came across this sentence, honestly, of all the stuff I encountered researching, this was the most amazing and baffling thing to me, which is this. "The bills were kept simple. Their final versions clocking in at just four pages each."
Senator Ellie Boldman
Correct. Yeah.
David Roberts
So, again, I come from the West Coast. The idea of legislating anything in four pages is amazing. I mean, these are just like, "You have to allow duplexes." Period. Signature here. There's just not — it's amazing to me. Was that on purpose, like, was that a deliberate choice going into this to try to keep it simple and stripped down?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Absolutely. Yes. Try to keep it as simple as possible. You know, we talked about the wonky nature of this stuff a little bit earlier. What we wanted to do was keep it simple. It also allowed for a lot of ideas to be moving simultaneously. When you have one idea in a bill, you don't have to worry about stuff that people don't understand getting amended into the bill. So it was definitely a conscious decision.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, you know, I think one thing that Senator Mandeville and I have seen is that part of the sort of "one subject, one bill," it's easy to understand for the public, but also for our colleagues in the legislature. As we noted, we're a citizen legislature, and so we're walking the aisles with teachers, firemen, and ranchers, a lot of retired folks, and they really do come from all walks of life. And I think that when we're reflecting on, you know, the transitions from '21 and then '23 and then '25, it really did start to become as simple as that.
Right. Like, it wasn't really just about a housing crisis. It started to become a Main Street business crisis. Right. Like in Montana, the chamber got involved because there weren't enough houses for baristas at Starbucks, or you would have, more than anecdotally, school districts where teachers or firemen didn't even live in their own communities. So when we talked about the University of Montana or the city of Missoula, well, everyone wants to live in Missoula. But when my son's 5th-grade teacher can't even afford to live in Missoula anymore, and that's not BS. I mean, that's true.
David Roberts
And that's easy to understand. That's a very potent...
Senator Ellie Boldman
It is really easy to understand. And so then it became a real pragmatic conversation to then talk about, "Well, why the hell then can't I just add another mother-in-law, build an ADU on my garage?" Like that doesn't make any sense to Democrats or Republicans and "Why can't I do this? And why can't I..." And sort of dumbing it down — to be polite about it — subject by subject, bill by bill. One, it allowed folks to really not be walked out. I mean, trying to understand that land use planners is, you know, I'm a lawyer, God bless it. And I don't even know what Forrest is talking about half the time.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
You're not the only one, Ellie.
Senator Ellie Boldman
But I'm really lucky that he explains it to me, you know, but I can understand why we want to have more accessibility to water and sewer. You know, I understand and everyone understands, when you're from Big Sky Country, you understand why we don't want to see more urban sprawl, and we want to save our rural spaces and our ag land. Those are common values. And so then it starts to make sense. All this wonky talk about like multi-family housing and density: "Oh, okay, like that's cool. Like that's why we would want it." And I'm telling you, I used to joke that like in time in the Montana legislature, it's been everything from a felony to be gay.
And then all of a sudden you found enough bipartisan people to not make it a felony. And then marijuana was illegal and now it's legal in Montana. And now to me, housing is the new gay. Because you can find —
David Roberts
That's my pull quote.
Senator Ellie Boldman
There you go. Yeah, we're like marijuana now.
David Roberts
Housing is the new weed.
Senator Ellie Boldman
That's right. And you for sure. And you know why? It's because when the Taco Bell on Reserve Street is closed for part of the day and the owner says it's because there's not enough workforce housing in our urban communities, that is an issue to everyday people. And people see that, you know, on the ground, they know how expensive it is. And when Senator Mandeville talked about the Covid effect and the Zoom boom, that's clear of all of the Rocky Mountain west right post Covid. People learned in real time, "Oh, holy shit, I don't have to live in San Francisco. I can live in Big Sky country and ski and raft and I can still work." And the issue is "And I can still make that San Francisco money." And that had a marked effect on Montana's housing market.
David Roberts
But what's interesting is that they didn't bring — I mean, maybe this is like too nerdy for you guys to even care about — but part of the big conversation in the Democratic coalition right now is about abundance and all the various critiques around abundance. And one of the frequent critiques is in blue areas like San Francisco, when you do get a law like this proposed, you get all these interest groups who come along and say, "Yes, you have to allow duplexes, but you have to have union labor and you have to have raw materials that came from the US and you have to do an environmental impact statement," and you place all these requirements on it, all of which may be sort of well-intentioned, but you end up with very complicated and very sort of laborious laws. It's called everything bagel liberalism.
And what you guys did in 2023, these are plain bagels. There are no gee-gaws hanging off these laws. It's very streamlined.
Senator Ellie Boldman
I just want to add to that because — Senator Mandeville and I are really good friends, and I have shared with him that sometimes my frustration is more on the left than the right. What you're describing —
David Roberts
On this issue, yes.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Absolutely. It's like perfect with the Democrats — and, you know, as a long-standing, proud Democrat — perfect gets in the way of the good every time. Instead of talking about these housing issues as an absolute human right and that these are crises for working-class Montanans, for students, for the elderly, and they're being priced out of their homes and, you know, the "put heads in beds" idea, the Democrats get in the way of themselves through all of these other, you know, as you just described very well, and more issues that kill these bills.
But I do think that the way the governor did it, and the way that the coalition has continued to be inclusive, not leaving, for example, me and some of my Democratic colleagues behind as we tout these successes, which certainly they could do. You know, it's a Republican majority. They can pass these bills usually without our help, but not always. You know, there certainly, as Senator Mandeville can share, are a number of Republicans that stand in the way of these bills as well.
David Roberts
So, let's cover quickly what happened in 2025, because one of the things that this shows to me, 2025 came back and passed a bunch more bills. Among them, incredible parking reform. I did a pod on parking reform in Washington a few weeks ago. This parking reform is, I think, equal to or exceeds that. Again, it's very — it just says, "Any home smaller than 1200 square feet, no parking minimums." Period. Very short. To the point. Then there's another one from you, Senator Mandeville, that allows ADUs in parcels outside cities, rural, I guess. Quickly, like, what's up with that?
What was the need for that? What motivated that?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, the ADU Bill from 2023 was specific to cities. Just in my day job, I'd run across a couple of issues where there were people that were wanting to build ADUs out in the county. This question came up, "Gee, why didn't that apply to the county? It seems like a missed opportunity." And I said, "You know what? You're right. Let's expand this." And it wasn't too controversial. You know, you just pick up what Senator Hertz did in '23 with his ADU bill and applied it to a different section of the law.
David Roberts
There you go. And one of the others that I have to call out here, because I have a friend who'll be very excited about this, is a bill legalizing single-stair buildings in the state. This is a real nerd — like, it's a very small group of nerds that are very passionate about this issue. But this is like a big and important thing.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
I think what we need to do when we talk about land use is realize that there's a lot of other stuff that goes into the way our land use laws end up working in practice. One of the big ones is the building code. You can strip out all the zoning requirements and regulations and simplify it, make it really user-friendly or permissive if you want, but if the building code doesn't let you do it, you're not going to be able to do it. So, taking a run at some of those building code requirements is maybe one of the next frontiers in land use reform.
David Roberts
Interesting. And the other big one in 2025 is SB243. Very exciting. That's your bill, Senator Boldman, which overrides local height restrictions.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Oh, yeah. The cities really loved me on that one.
David Roberts
I'm so curious. I love this.
Senator Ellie Boldman
But the people like it. Well, you know, listen, I'm a liberal and I like the environment. And so, I would prefer we build up, you know what I mean, and not out. I love the idea.
David Roberts
Well, you don't have to convince me, but a lot of people really, really hate this idea.
Senator Ellie Boldman
I, well, we're well aware, Forrest, and I serve on that committee together. And there were some, let's just say, beyond angry. I mean, you would have thought this was the worst idea. I'm not allowed in some sections of Bozeman at this moment. But they're wrong. Because you know what? You can't afford to live in Bozeman. But yes, the idea of trying to get the coalition to understand that building up is an environmental issue. Right. Like, let's rock and roll. You know, if you want to save your open space and your ag land, then we got to build up.
If you want to be connected to water and sewer that's existing and not build more pipe and expand our footprint everywhere, if you want to be connected to existing transportation options, people loved it. And I wanted to say this. You know, Mandeville and I also — my son's in fifth grade. Forrest's kids are a little bit younger and we're certainly not — Forrest and I started when we were much younger — but you know, we're sort of in that old man market there over in the Capitol. We're in a more of a younger mid area here. And what's great is we actually now serve with legislators even a little younger than us.
And I have to say, I really think that's the unspoken, that it isn't always R versus D. There are some generational issues here.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Absolutely.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Our colleagues that help fight for these issues together clearly are of a working class, or young parents, or weren't students long ago, or weren't renters long ago ourselves. And so, we have a much more empathetic and maybe realistic understanding of the housing market in the state of Montana.
David Roberts
And also, if you're a young person and you're looking around Bozeman and you have these sort of 50-something wealthy, you know, ranchers in their second home saying, "We would prefer to keep this a small hamlet because it pleases our aesthetic preferences." You know, like, "Screw you, buddy. I need a house."
Senator Ellie Boldman
After the '23 session, the Land Use Planning Act was litigated by largely liberals in Bozeman. I mean, those are talk about, talk about NIMBYs on steroids. I mean, these are people that likely, you know, gave money to me. Right.
David Roberts
I want to ask you specifically about that in a minute, but Senator Mandeville, I just have a couple of political questions I wanted to ask you. I've been reading about people who follow Montana politics. They know that on the Republican side in the Montana legislature right now, there is some agita going on. There's a group of Republican senators that have sort of broken off and are working with Democrats to pass some bills. This has created some divisions on the Republican side of the aisle. Is housing caught up in that? Is it divisive within the Republican caucus?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, like Senator Boldman mentioned, the housing issue seems to divide more on a generational issue than a partisan issue. And I think that we've definitely seen that within the Republican caucus that some of these reforms we've pushed are not universally accepted in my caucus. I don't think those have gotten caught up in the bigger issues we've had as far as what you're referencing. But it's definitely not either caucus is 100% in favor of these housing reforms or not. We definitely see that divide generationally on both sides.
David Roberts
Talk a little bit more about what the coalition you mentioned earlier does look like. For instance, the trade unions are on board. Farmers, ranchers, and rural people are involved. I know I saw you had some libertarian think tanks on board. Describe the coalition that got this over the line.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, we had, like I mentioned, the League of Cities and Towns was involved in portions of the Montana miracle. The Montana Association of Planners was very involved. The counties were involved. We also had the Chamber of Commerce, as Senator Boldman mentioned, the realtors, the builders, some of those traditionally Republican groups. And then the libertarian think tanks, Americans for Prosperity, the Frontier Institute were very involved in this. But we also did have those environmental groups that recognized, like Senator Boldman mentioned, that the alternative is five-acre ranchettes gobbling up this great farm ground.
David Roberts
Well, this divides the environmental community too. Like, none of our traditional factions really — like, this issue scrambles almost all traditional factions.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
It does. And the ranchers don't want to see 20 acres full of weeds. They want to see — I'm sure ranchers would rather see organized development than sprawl chewing up land. Also, ranchers want to be able to sell a portion of their land, maybe to put a kid through college or to retire, without jumping through a bunch of hoops. There's a lot of groups that are very in favor of these reforms and it has been a very interesting coalition.
David Roberts
Well, Senator Boldman, the flip-side question, who is resisting? Who is the organized resistance? Because a lot of the, like you say, a lot of the sort of traditional groups that might resist don't seem to have fought very hard on this. Who is fighting? Is there organized resistance?
Senator Ellie Boldman
For sure. And so, I think that Senator Mandeville, as a planner, works in a professional space with the cities and towns much more robustly touts their cooperative support, which in some ways, particularly on the big bill in '23. But I feel like their support really came around to a sense that the writing was on the wall that this was going to pass one way or another or some forms of it. And so, it was better to sort of be in the tent than outside of the tent. I will say that they weren't supportive of all of the regulatory reforms from '23 and certainly not of the '25 legislation.
And so, I still see very much a lot of the cities and towns, particularly the bigger urban ones, ones like the Bozemans and the Missoulas, having very strong opposition. In the red versus blue divide in Montana, you know, for the most part, a lot of times the more urban areas where there's a university tend to have more — where we elect Democrats. Right. And so the pressure on then Democrats to vote for local control at all costs, you know, God forbid, then that really puts the pressure on then the Democrats to oppose. I think that there still again is a lot of opposition in some spaces and places in the environmental movement.
There needs to be a lot more education, a lot more robust education about bigger picture connections. Like really connecting with some of the older environmentalists, connecting the dots on why, you know, "Why does housing matter for birds, trees, and fish? Let me explain to you why."
David Roberts
I'm doing what I can.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it's critical because the pressure on the left and again, I think that I'm really appreciative that we're all acknowledging really what seems to be a bit of a generational understanding of bringing in more middle-aged and younger legislators to talk about this issue. I will say that across the board, 100%, it would have been very difficult for some bills like my height restriction or the parking lot, if there wouldn't have been enough Democrats and Republicans, those bills would not have passed. So, you couldn't have had a coalition in either caucus to make any of those go.
It really took both sides of the aisle working together. But I did want to say that the sort of targeted approach to workforce development or attainable housing, you know, whatever kind of language that we're all trying to use targeting certain types of workers, seemed to work. So we were talking about targeting workers. And so instead of approaching the unions from a space of like, "Well, we'll use union labor to build," we're going to actually approach the unions to say, "We're going to build houses for union laborers." So the idea would be, "This is for teachers, this is for firefighters in our community so they can raise their families in their own communities."
We are targeting the Department of Corrections, for example, in Deer Lodge, and in some of these more rural areas, housing was an issue for them. So, we, the governor, really stayed dedicated to building and focused on tying building developments to certain types of people. And I will add again, that included the tribal nations. We learned that there were a certain number of reservations that had not had — and this is no BS — a new house built on some of our reservations since, like, 1982.
David Roberts
Oh, my God.
Senator Ellie Boldman
I mean, it was really kind of shocking, right? And it's because nobody, there was nobody that was investing in building. And so, I guess I just think that sort of eating around the sides of Democrats, really seeing that they're standing in the way when Republicans, time after time, get the headlines that they're in the front of this issue. This is actually when you knock doors, what people really want. They want affordable housing.
David Roberts
Well, everybody understands high home prices, right? That and gas prices. Those are two things everybody is aware of. So, Senator Mandeville, I'm very familiar with how people on the left discuss these issues with one another and with their politicians. And I'm familiar with all the sort of factions and all the infighting and all the ridiculousness that goes on on the left over housing issues. But, I'll just say up front, I'm not as familiar with how Republicans talk to one another about this. I'm just sort of curious, like, what you are hearing from your constituents about it and how you frame it to them.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Sure, yeah, that's a good question. So, a lot of the reason we had some of these libertarian groups was looking at it from a right to develop your property in a market-sensible way. So, if the market demands a certain type of development, you should be able to develop it without having local zoning regulations, for example, saying you can't. A good example of that is the duplex bill. If there's a market for duplexes in your community, you have property, you want to develop a duplex. The government shouldn't say, "Well, you can't build a duplex just because you're not zoned for it."
That's not a good reason. So, we really took a free market approach to it. Another thing that I've had success with, kind of pushing for some of these bills, has been speaking to the generational individuals in our communities. "Hey, when your kids grow up, do you want them to be able to live in Montana? Do you want them to be able to afford a place? Do you want them to be able to find a place?"
David Roberts
I think that transcends politics. That particular point right there seems to me to speak to everyone.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yep. But that's been a really good talking point for us as well. It's just to make sure that kids can come home. So, I'd say between the free market and the keep kids around, that's kind of the approach on the right.
David Roberts
On the free market point, you can sort of, or I guess, sort of like the freedom point, you could see that playing out in one of two different ways. On the one hand, like "I want to do something with my land. The government shouldn't be able to tell me not to." But then you could also see people saying, "If our community wants XYZ rules, it's not up to the big state government in Montana to tell us otherwise." You know what I mean? Like, there is an element of state power overruling local power here. It's sort of an unavoidable element of that.
I wonder how that, if you, if you run into that?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, usually, the right doesn't get into social development ideas. Right? Usually, we shy away from saying, "The community wants this, therefore that's what we need to fight for." That's not typically the way these conversations on my side of the aisle go. A lot of times, it's, "If I want to do this on my property, I should be able to." Now, there's definitely some of that, "If I want to do it on my property, I should be able to, but my neighbor should not be able to do it on his property because I have to look at it."
David Roberts
Yeah, that's the real sentiment.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, there is probably some confusion on where property rights start and end, and that probably transcends politics as well. One thing that I like to think of when I think about zoning is zoning should be seen more as a list of what you can do, not a list of what you can't do. Which is why we try to expand those by-right allowances by superseding local zoning in certain places with the accessory dwelling units, with the duplexes. This is what you can do, not a list of what you can't do. And try to expand some rights that way.
Because you don't want the fertilizer plant next to a school, right? You don't want the hog rendering plant right in the middle of town next to a single-family residence, residential neighborhood. One area that's kind of gotten a lot of Republicans in favor of zoning has been marijuana. With marijuana being legalized in the state, recreational marijuana being legalized in the state, there's been a lot of conservative county commissioners, conservative individuals that say, "Hey, how can we control where marijuana dispensaries are located?" And really, the best way to do that is zoning. Again, wind farms, solar farms.
A lot of times on the right, "How do we put sideboards on some of these uses that we're not necessarily in favor of?" Well, zoning. That's how you do that."
Senator Ellie Boldman
I think that on the left, Forrest is right. On the left, he hears me trying to educate my colleagues a little bit more on that topic, which is from my perspective, you know, "Why, why, why, why is this a statewide issue and not a local control issue?" And I think that we've sort of talked about two things. One, I'll share with my colleagues on the left that as I shared earlier in the podcast, developers and investment in larger scale housing projects, or any housing projects, need predictability. And in the state of Montana and everywhere, it was really a patchwork quilt of rules and regulations, and none of them made sense.
And you couldn't build an ADU here, and you had to have this many parking spaces in Kalispell versus in Billings. So, the predictability... But then, I think what's resonated a little bit with the lefties is the idea that a statewide crisis, like a human right, like housing, requires a statewide solution. And so then, that's when I sort of put on my lawyer hat. And in my lawyer hat, I say, "Well, hey, you know, we don't allow our cities and towns to have American with Disability Act differences. We don't allow them to have fire regulations that are different."
And so, at this point, when it does take, like I said, an investment that's going to be out of state or at an out-of-state level, then we're going to have to create this predictability on a statewide basis that requires these statewide solutions. And I think that that starts to get the liberals a little bit more thinking of the power of that, of this truly being almost like a humanitarian crisis and that it needs to be solved. You know, it needs that level of solutions because really, you know, that's how liberals think, frankly.
David Roberts
I don't want to make any assumptions, but I'm guessing, Senator Mandeville, that you don't use a lot of environmental language when selling these reforms to your constituents. I'm guessing climate change is not central to your pitch. But Senator Boldman, how about you? Do you find the environmental arguments —
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yes, 100%.
David Roberts
The pro density environmental arguments work for your constituents?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Correct, yeah. Two, you know, the biggest two things that really, to break it down and have it like, why does it matter is truly that just this idea that housing is a human right, that folks need housing, that working-class people need housing, that students need housing, you know, so there's sort of that argument, period, which doesn't necessarily, you know, obviously translate on the right. You know, sometimes they just — the free market should decide and they just don't care. But on the left, to really bring in a lot of my other colleagues, is this really understanding what it means to be a Montanan, what it means to sort of protect and preserve our way of life and the environmental movement and then really starting to get them to see how that translates in infrastructure, development, planning, density, multifamily housing, I mean, all of these sort of wonky ideas and how it really connects then to fish and trout and open space and ag land and that means that we've got to build in and connection to public transportation or transportation barriers.
So, and then I think that what I mentioned a little earlier too, this sort of third wheel, which is that there are different kinds of housing types. That housing "heads in beds" doesn't always have to include housing. You know, it includes apartments, it includes rentals, it includes crisis beds, it includes addiction. And so, to always continue to make sure that the conversation is that broad and to know that we do, we are lucky, I think, to have a movement here in Montana and a governor that actually does really care about the diversity of those types of housing.
I mean, he really is also invested in mental health and addiction. And so, those sort of working in tandem has been really, I think, useful to keep the Democrats together. And I just kind of, the only other thing is my "marijuana is the new housing" argument is that — I have gotten to see, right, like even in my own gestation these last couple years, my own support on the left of even now that there are these YIMBY movements that they are like active and they're out there and they're organized. I don't remember five years ago being a part of YIMBY groups or anything, you know what I mean?
David Roberts
It's really come on strong.
Senator Ellie Boldman
It's incredible, right? And to have the likes of Kamala Harris or anyone on the left have, I mean, it's an active part of both sides of the aisle. I mean, both Donald Trump and Kamala had housing policy plans, you know what I mean? And so, I think that that organization and that support on the left has really helped me because a lot of times there were only a few of us on the left kind of making these arguments. And when we're buffered more loudly and more organized by free market ALEC libertarian think tanks, it doesn't always curry a lot of trust on my side of the aisle that I'm working for...
David Roberts
So, the YIMBYs have come along and helped you? Basically, the YIMBYs have bolstered your...?
Senator Ellie Boldman
There's no doubt about it. To give it credibility because otherwise, I'm just sort of on an island, you know, working with the Americans for Prosperity, right? And it's a little odd. So, I really appreciate that they kind of have my back and that they help to then develop other lefty YIMBYs. That can really sort of bolster the credibility and then kind of get a few more votes on the left because there still are, God bless it, a number of Democrats that just will not budge on this issue.
They still fundamentally believe in parking garages and parking spaces, and that the mayor —
David Roberts
Oh God.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Oh, yeah, there's no doubt.
David Roberts
Senator Mandeville, if I could ask a slightly nerdy policy question. It looks like the bulk of the policies that you all have passed in Montana are more or less supply-oriented, basically like trying to free up more building, more building of more stuff, which is obviously the main thing. But there is the other flip side of tenant protections, protecting the housed, things like limits on fees or safeguards against eviction, a variety of tenant-side reforms. Are any of those on the radar at all?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, it comes up every session. Like you mentioned, there's a lot of landlord and tenant bills that we see. I'm not sure that those have made it into the housing policy side. One thing you have to keep in mind is the demographics of the legislature and what can pass and what won't pass. Montana is not going to pass a law that gets into price caps on rent. You're not going to do that in a Republican legislature because we have taken the supply side, let's get more heads in beds, let's get more units online.
That's been our focus. Not socializing housing. Pushing it more towards the free market.
David Roberts
Right. Senator Boldman, do you have any ideas along those lines brewing in the back of your head?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Well, heck, yeah. Okay, so last session we actually did pass an awesome, awesome bill. And it was one that I had sponsored and Senator Mandeville had co-sponsored with me. This last cycle was passed by a member of the House. And that was that application fees couldn't be predatory. So, in the rental market, the bill, and I'm sort of paraphrasing here, but basically, you pay an application fee once, the landlord can only charge whatever costs were associated. So whether that was the cost of a background check, the remainder of the application fee had to be returned and then you could use that application fee more than once.
So, this idea of this predatory, particularly in Montana, you were hearing that people were spending hundreds of dollars on application fees for rental properties and there was no room at the end anyway. And so, that is a really exciting bill that I hope they duplicate nationwide. I think we can move further in that realm a little bit. But I will say that just the supply side and building more apartments was so desperately needed that it has shown — I mean, we're sort of in the kind of newer days here — but we're starting to see lower rent prices in places like Missoula and Bozeman, more availability.
David Roberts
I just read the big article about Bozeman. Amazing. They built a bunch more apartments, and prices started coming down.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
It's amazing how that works.
David Roberts
The supply and demand works after all, who knew?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, yeah, it worked. And so, trying to translate, right, like why my silly bill of height restrictions and stairwells and parking and why that all sort of mattered was that it did have the end effect of building more apartments. I do think that as we continue to move forward, I really do think that there'll be more bipartisan interest in maybe not the socialize-y, the feel-good side of rent control type laws, but in this idea of just trying to make a fair playing field for folks that are renting out there. I think the chamber's involvement in that and the side of understanding workforce, economy, right.
Like, that has seemed to work for me with the Republicans. They all have employees and they certainly — but also particularly for the Montana market or the Rocky Mountain west — employ so many tourist-based workers, right? Tourism is our economy. And so, they come in and so trying to sort of dovetail the need of seeing that connection has been really helpful. And so, I would be hopeful that we'll continue the coalition moving forward in that way and not just on the development supply side, and that we can keep that conversation going so that you can have us on again in a year or two with some more wonderful, wonderful miracles.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Montana miracle Part 3.
Senator Ellie Boldman
That's right.
David Roberts
Senator Mandeville, I'm going to ask you for some speculation and feel free to turn me down if you have nothing to say about it. But I'm sort of pondering the partisan character of the housing issue in various places. Like, it's amazingly bipartisan in Montana. My general observation, tell me whether you think this is right, is that generally, I'm seeing Republicans in the west, the south, and the west be more open to housing reform, whereas Republicans in the Midwest and especially the Northeast, I think, are still very squarely on the NIMBY side. Do you think that's accurate and do you have any thoughts about why that is?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, I don't know. I don't think I've seen that. I do think there are some differences state to state. You know, I've been able to get around the country a little bit after working on some of these issues and talk to some people in other states about what roadblocks they're facing in implementing some of these reforms. And I'm not sure there's a nationwide or regionalized breakdown like that, but I do think in states where there are barriers to getting younger people in the legislature, I think that's where you see some of these roadblocks happen.
So, I think it's still generational, but there are definitely probably states where Republicans are older and more against it, and Democrats are younger and more for it, or vice versa, just based on how some of those legislatures are.
David Roberts
And Senator Boldman, a similar question about the National Democratic Party. Democrats seem to have kind of a different problem. I mean, it must be on some level for you to be sitting there as a Democrat and watch a Republican super majority sail through this amazing... I mean, these are things that, like, I know blue state Democrats who have been scrabbling and working themselves to the bone to try to make incremental progress towards these things for decades. And then Montana just comes along, passes it all in two sessions. Does this cause you to reflect on the Democratic Party a little bit?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Oh, my God.
David Roberts
Do you think Democrats can learn a little bit about what's going on?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Oh, my God. Do you have a minute? No, just kidding. You know, Forrest knows how I feel about this. You just continue to change and grow. And you know, obviously both parties right now, I think, have a lot of purity tests that are problematic. And it's getting, obviously, I mean, if anyone has looked at an election lately, it's clearly getting in the way of the shared values we all have. And I think that the party purity test right now, I mean, David, I'll tell you, I think there were Democrats in the Montana legislature that would oppose some of these housing bills just because they were coming from Republicans or just because it was the governor's agenda.
Like being associated with the Montana miracle is kind of like a persona non grata, like, "Oh, Ellie's on the task force," you know, and I think it's a real shame. And again, I'm thankful for the YIMBYs out there, the YIMBYism movement, to continue to shine a light.
David Roberts
It's almost like getting something done right offends their sensibilities on some level.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Listen, I mean, I'm telling you. And so, we're just going to keep sludging ahead and knowing that on the ground, respectfully, I'm more popular than ever. It might not make me as popular all the time with our constituent groups, but I know that at home and folks that care about housing, they certainly know. And I think that again, bringing in what Forrest said about, you know, these other states, if the Democrats can't, it's like if they can't have it completely built by HUD or something, right? Like not all housing can and should be for — and here's the thing I say: my dad worked for the telephone company. We're a working-class family. We never lived in government-sponsored housing and neither do a lot of families.
So, this idea that all working class, you know, or even lower and middle class poor people, not all of them live in government-sponsored housing, I mean, it's just, it's ludicrous. The private sector has to be a part of the solution. Government can't and shouldn't do it all alone and we don't have enough tax dollars out there to do it. You know, and so to try to get, I think the left to understand that the public-private partnerships and that the resources that, you know, forging together with solutions, it's attainable.
I think what is interesting again is more and more people understanding these generational divides on more issues than just housing. I mean, there is just so clearly now to me a movement of, you know, Gen X, millennials, whatever that next group is. What are they called again?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Gen Z.
David Roberts
The millennials are old now. This is hard for me to keep in mind as a Gen X guy. The millennials are old now.
Senator Ellie Boldman
I gotcha. But my point is that I think that if some of these states, for example, don't have term limits, that's why you're going to find Republican old guys that aren't coming along. Forrest and I and the legislators younger than us, whether or not I like term limits, now that I'm an establishment politician, I don't like term limits. But I see the utility and how important they were because Forrest and I would never have been at the table 10, 15 years ago if they hadn't existed. Right? And they continue to create these opportunities out in the west, out here, that you're going to continue to see these coalitions build in this movement.
But again, that free market idea, those guys, without them continuing to include, they didn't have to include us, but to continue to include us. I guess they did have to, because again, you wouldn't have had the votes on a lot of these issues without the Democrats, even if we were a small coalition. And so, to continue to see us all working together, not with the party labels and the purity tests, but on the value-based labels, has been really kind of fun.
David Roberts
I'm just terrified that the national parties are going to notice and descend on you and crush all this cooperation and progress. Senator Mandeville, you say you travel around and talk to a lot of other states about land use stuff. You've been involved in land use stuff. Do you think Montana can serve as a good model for other states? What do you tell other states about following this model? What sort of tips do you have?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
To do the coalition building, you've got to start early. I mentioned the planners started working on this before anyone else did, and I'll just give a plug for my profession: you've got to have the planners, the people that are going to put this stuff into practice, involved. They're the ones that are going to be able to tell you whether or not it can work logistically and process-wise, and where those pitfalls might be. So, get the practitioners involved, get the coalitions built. It's going to take a while. You're not going to do this overnight.
I know it seems like in Montana we did it really quickly, but a lot of these ideas had been percolating for a while and just hadn't gotten across the finish line for whatever reason. And it took us all pulling in the same direction to get some of these done. Like I think Senator Boldman mentioned, you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You've got to be willing to give and take a little bit. If you don't like parking minimums, and I hate parking minimums, but you're probably not going to get rid of all parking minimums.
So, you can kind of start targeting some of that stuff like Representative Zolnikov's bill did last session. In cities of certain areas, certain types of units cannot require or can only require X amount of parking spaces. That's a good starting spot.
David Roberts
"28-year-old Zolnikov," we should say, speaking of the generational divide. Senator Boldman, is this — I mean, it's only been two years since the first round of bills in 2023, and obviously, the 2025 bills are still fresh — it's a little early to make any judgments, but do we know anything yet about how it's going? Is it working?
Are things happening? And I'm especially curious about whenever you get these state laws that are in some way or another kind of overriding local limitations, you end up with the question of like, how do you enforce it on the locals? You know, because you're going to get towns and cities that are going to try to weasel out of things in various ways. So, I'm just curious like A, is it working? And B, how do you enforce it?
Senator Ellie Boldman
So Senator Mandeville and I talk about this often, right? The developers have been coming to us and saying, "Well, XYZ City basically isn't following the law and our only recourse is to sue." Right? And so we're working through that and we're going to have, I think, some carrot and stick conversations moving forward of how to carrot and how to stick compliance. I think that's going to end up with our great successes. The Montana miracle means now that the next cycle is we are going to probably have to figure out whether now we have to use some enforcement mechanisms to make sure that our communities are complying.
But we do know, right? Like the idea of boots on the ground, you know, houses are being built in our communities across the state. You can literally see developments being built. And we know anecdotally now that there are enough that have been built over the last several years that the rental prices in certain communities now, we know more than anecdotally, there is the data now that they have been going down. So it's working, right? We know it's working. You do build it and they do come. And the more supply that we've created has resulted in more competition and at least rental prices going down is what we know so far.
David Roberts
What about politically, though? Is there, I mean, I can imagine a lot of legislators sort of fearing a public backlash. You know, like if somebody comes to Missoula and proposes building a six-story building above Butterfly Herbs, which I think would be awesome, right? But I'm guessing you would have Missoulans in the streets with torches. I'm curious, has there been any political backlash?
Senator Ellie Boldman
And here's what I do. I shame them, and I shame them by saying, "You know what, we need housing." That's the bottom line, is that going back to sort of those liberal values of that "this is a human right." And we had a true crisis. We still have a crisis, right? I think what, 51,000 people moved here in over two years.
David Roberts
In three years, 50,000 residents came there and 19,000 homes were built during that same time.
Senator Ellie Boldman
And so, you know, you just have to flat out shame them. You know, the reality, as Forrest and I both know, is that the problem on both sides of the aisle, and this is something that no politics can fix, is that Montana's way of life is changing. And that's a fact. And that's really, really hard for a lot of people who've lived here for generations. Right. Their way of life is changing. And so, whether or not we put another few stories on Butterfly Herbs in downtown Missoula or we put it anywhere in the state, that is the truth.
Montana, you know, Colorado, Idaho, it's changing. And so, those are the things that politicians can't fix. And so, how we're going to have it change is hopefully in a way that does require Democrats and Republicans to work together to have safe and healthy communities. Right. And preserve the environment. And to do that is this movement, this sort of very YIMBY movement together.
David Roberts
How about you, Senator Mandeville? Is this, I can imagine, a Republican voter sort of thinking like this, you know, more housing, "I just associate that with Democrats, basically. I associate that with blue cities." You know, are you getting any backlash at all?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yes, I have had people tell me that I am "helping the United Nations implement Agenda 2030."
Senator Ellie Boldman
Right, right. And I'm in the back pocket, I'm in the back pocket of rich developers.
David Roberts
Oh, that's a perennial. That's a perennial.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, it happens. But a lot of it is, "Well, I don't want high rises in my community." Well, if you don't live — you know, it's not that people are going to be forced to build high rises where they're not marketable, where it's not going to happen. You don't have to worry about someone coming in and the only thing they can build is six-story buildings. That's not what any of these bills require. They don't require duplexes. They just require local governments to allow duplexes in certain situations. I think a lot of times people look at what the bill allows and see they're afraid that that's what the bill mandates.
David Roberts
"Oh, that's very common. The response to parking reform is very much like, "Oh, you're going to make parking illegal."
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, a lot of times when I do get those calls from my side of the aisle saying, they're worried about what the results are going to be, usually we can talk through it and just explain where I'm coming from, and it works out. So, it's been a good opportunity to be able to nerd out on some planning issues with people that wouldn't normally do it. And, I can nerd out on planning stuff for a long time.
David Roberts
Same. All right, well, I've kept you guys too long. So, by way of wrapping up, you know, this is like the bills from the last two sessions are just, I have to say again, just remarkable in their scope. Like these are a lot of like holy grails for housing reformers that you've just sort of knocked down like a bowling frame. So, I'm curious, what's next? Are there obvious next items on the housing agenda or are you kind of done for now?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
We're never done. I think one thing I'm watching is the Land Use Planning Act. Several of our reforms are being challenged legally.
David Roberts
Oh, I meant to bring that up, but that just got resolved. Right, the judge voted.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
So, it was partially resolved. It's being appealed. From my perspective, from the Land Use Planning Act perspective, some of the stuff that was thrown out was the front-loading, the planning process. Montana does have a strong constitutional right to know and participate, which is great. I mean, it's good to have that for sure. I'm not saying we need to get rid of that or water it down by any means.
David Roberts
Limiting some of these local meetings runs afoul of that?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
That's been what a judge has said. I disagree with that. I mean, I think if you take that out to its logical conclusion, he's saying that the city would have to have a public hearing for every action. I mean, I couldn't care less if my neighbor has an accessory dwelling unit. Right. The most annoying thing is if they have six dogs. But you know what? They don't have a public hearing to get their dog license. So there's just some perspective that I think is needed when we talk about this. But to just make sure that these laws withstand legal scrutiny is a goal of mine.
David Roberts
So, just to clarify, a lower court judge ruled on that, upheld most of the law, struck down a few of the things regarding limiting local participation, and now it's being appealed to a higher court. That's the current correct status.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yep.
David Roberts
And do you think that's going to go high? Do you have any idea how high that's going to go?
Senator Forrest Mandeville
I figure the State Supreme Court.
David Roberts
It's quite interesting. It'll be really interesting to see.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
But yeah, you know, if we need to massage some places in law to make sure that we are allowing the proper amount of public participation, that's something that I'm definitely sensitive to and we'll make sure that happens. I think we want to keep working through some of these other requirements like the building code that I mentioned earlier. I think that's going to continue to be an issue. Water is for fighting, whiskey is for drinking in Montana. And we are going to have to continue to work through our water right process and how water is supplied to rural homes, how the expanded place in use is handled through the water right process when cities annex.
Same with wastewater disposal, we're going to have to keep looking at that to make sure that we're both protecting the environment to the extent that we're responsible for, and as required in statute, as well as to make sure that we can provide the housing that's being demanded of us. So, there's still a lot of stuff to work through and frankly, I'm looking forward to the challenge. There are some of these things we definitely have to thread the needle on. You can't throw out all the environmental protections for the sake of housing, but some of these protections aren't necessarily reasonable and we do need to work through them.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Well, that's good to hear.
David Roberts
And Senator Boldman, what's next on your housing agenda?
Senator Ellie Boldman
Yeah, yeah, well, let's not throw out all the environmental protections.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Now, you sound like a Democrat.
Senator Ellie Boldman
There we go. Let's keep a few of them. Poop in the water is not good.
David Roberts
They just reformed CEQA in California. Democrats did that. They reformed their own environmental law. Miracles can happen.
Senator Ellie Boldman
"We, you know, I think going forward, we're definitely not done. I'm excited that we can continue to do more. I think we want to keep an eye on what type of housing is being built. I think there's going to be a lot of conversations to make sure that we continue to, you know, hear some criticism to make sure that the housing bill isn't just for... We talked about the COVID Zoom boom. But we also have what we call the Yellowstone effect, which is the TV show Yellowstone and Kevin Costner. And every rich person —
And so, they say, people get off of the airplane and they go to the real estate agent and they just say, "I just want to buy a ranch." So, I just think that the Yellowstone effect will be to continue to monitor that all the housing being built is attainable for the workforce. Right. We're not just building for the wealthy. I think there is a real conversation. I'm not always as persuaded against the Airbnb/VRBO thing, but I do think that we want to keep making sure that again, we're a tourist-based economy in the state and so in Whitefish, Kalispell, Bozeman, Missoula, they're not just a bunch of out-of-state hedge funds that are buying all our apartments and turning them into VRBOs.
I think that there could be some legitimate criticism there that we want to watch out for. And, you know, I think that we still have one more term with the current governor and he continues to be really passionate about it. We have a lot of really great partners right now that are coming back. And so, like I said, I hope that we're on your show again in a year or two to talk about Montana miracle number three. And you're always welcome to come out here for a Grizz game.
David Roberts
Well, we do periodically. My wife loves minor league baseball.
Senator Ellie Boldman
There we go.
David Roberts
So, Missoula just has the prettiest baseball field. Well, this has been delightful, you two. Thank you so much for walking us through this and thank you so much for all your work.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Thanks for having us.
Senator Ellie Boldman
We got to nerd out together. This was a blast.
Senator Forrest Mandeville
Yeah, this was great. I appreciate it.
Senator Ellie Boldman
Thank you so much.
David Roberts
Thank you for listening to Volts. It takes a village to make this podcast work. Shout out, especially, to my super producer, Kyle McDonald, who makes me and my guests sound smart every week. And it is all supported entirely by listeners like you. So, if you value conversations like this, please consider joining our community of paid subscribers at volts.wtf. Or, leaving a nice review, or telling a friend about Volts. Or all three. Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time.
