LoginThe past and future of community choice aggregation
This week, I chat with Dawn Weisz of MCE Clean Energy about the nitty-gritty of community choice aggregation, where local governments take control of their electricity procurement. We get into issues like navigating utility obstruction, the complexities of rising grid costs they don't control, and their push for smarter, more autonomous regulation.
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David Roberts
Hello and greetings, everyone. This is Volts for May 23, 2025, "The past and future of community choice aggregation." I'm your host, David Roberts. Some communities do not like the way their utility purchases and manages energy. In 10 states, they can do something about it.
"Community choice aggregation" goes by various names in different places — "community choice energy," "municipal aggregation" — and the legislative and regulatory details vary from state to state, but the basic idea is that a local government or a group of local governments can opt out of their utility, procure their own electricity, and in some cases manage their own efficiency and DER programs.
The utility still manages the physical infrastructure, the grid itself, but it becomes the community's responsibility, through a new nonprofit entity, to decide what kind of energy it wants and to buy it.
(I did a podcast on CCAs with MIT professor David Hsu in 2022 — I recommend going back and listening if you haven't heard it.)
California is generally acknowledged as the leader and pioneer in community choice aggregators (CCAs), which now serve almost 40% of the state's total load, over 6 million people. CCAs tend to be bigger, beefier, and more powerful in California than in most other states: they can represent multiple communities, sign long-term contracts, engage customers in demand-side programs, and support local development.
To discuss the long history and uncertain future of California CCAs, I thought I would talk with someone who goes back to the very beginning. Dawn Weisz helped launch the state's first CCA, Marin Clean Energy, in 2010 and has led it ever since through feast and famine to its impressive current size: Now called MCE Clean Energy, it serves over 1.5 million people in 38 member communities.
I am eager to talk to Weisz about some of that history, the cool programs that CCAs are offering customers today, and the difficult current challenges facing not only CCAs but California electricity generally.
All right then, with no further ado, Dawn Weisz, welcome to Volts. Thank you so much for coming.
Dawn Weisz
Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here.
David Roberts
To begin with, let's start with just a few basics. I sort of passed over it quickly, but let's talk a little bit about what a CCA is. One question I think a lot of people have when I try to describe them is, how is this different than a municipal utility? Like, people have heard of municipal utilities. So, maybe just describe what a CCA is and isn't, to give people a good sense of what it does.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, that's a great way to start. So, CCAs are local government agencies that can become the power purchasers for their communities, and that means for all the load in their communities. And the way that we're different from municipal utilities is that we aren't in charge of the poles and wires, but we buy the generation and we're in charge of getting the generation purchased and onto the grid. Then, we're in charge of serving customers with information about that energy and making sure it's accounted for correctly.
David Roberts
So what about like billing, like customer interaction? Does the utility still do that or do you do that or do you both do it?
Dawn Weisz
By law, the utility still handles all of the billing, and the CCA charges show up on the bill. That tends to work pretty well from a customer simplicity standpoint. However, it does take a bit of question answering when customers see our charges on the bill and want to understand and make sure they're not being double charged.
David Roberts
Right, right, right. And so, when people pay utility bills, in part, they're paying for energy for procured electricity, but in part, they're paying what are called "fixed costs" or just costs to maintain the grid, do upkeep on the grid, manage programs required by the government, et cetera, all these costs that aren't energy. I'm assuming that customers of your CCA still pay those to the utility? So, their bill is like, "Here's your utility bit and here's your CCA bit." Is that roughly what they see?
Dawn Weisz
Exactly. And I think an easy way to refer to those charges is transmission and distribution charges, or T&D charges. So, those show up on the bill as a separate line item. And the line item we're responsible for is the generation line item. But the T&D charges are paid directly through to the utility. Also, gas charges are paid directly to the utility, and any generation revenue collected by the investor-owned utility is sent to the CCA to cover our cost of buying that energy.
David Roberts
In my understanding, California electricity bills are rising, have been rising — it's kind of a problem, people are upset about it — and that most of what is responsible for those rising prices is T&D, is transmission and distribution costs. Actual generation costs have actually been steady or falling, which means that your customers' bills are rising, but it's not your fault. How do you explain, what's that process of trying to explain that to people look like? Has that proved problematic to you?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, it's problematic. But what I think is really surprising is that 15 years ago, when we launched MCE as the first CCA, the big concern at that time was, "How can we increase the amount of renewables on the grid and how could we ever afford to get more?" And you know, at the time that we launched, PG&E's renewable content was only 13%.
David Roberts
And it was extremely expensive at that time, too.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, at that time before launching, we asked, "Hey, could y'all double our renewable content? Could you get us more?" And they said, "Oh no, you know, it would never be affordable. We couldn't do it." So, you know, after doing a lot of analysis, we realized we could launch this CCA program and end up with prices that were at or below what PG&E was charging and double the renewable content that we were supplying. And we were able to, in year one, we started with 25% renewable energy and then by the next year we were able to bump that up.
We're now at 60% renewables for our default product, and we have a 100% renewable product. And you're right, the generation costs have become less of a concern than the T&D costs.
David Roberts
So, do you have a way of communicating that fact to your customers? I guess they can see it on their bill if they're paying attention. But like, people don't pay attention.
Dawn Weisz
We have an in-house call center. So, our CSRs are our MCE staff, and we take calls all the time with questions about bills. Often, folks are asking about the T&D side of the bill. We do our best to explain based on the information that's provided.
David Roberts
Talk to PG&E?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, we do. And we also have a number of staff dedicated to the policy side of the shop, and we're engaged at the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) to try and make sure there's good accountability for how those dollars are being spent.
David Roberts
Well, let me ask a question then about prices, since you brought it up. So, back in 2010, I'd say probably like the 2010-2015 era, PG&E had, as you say, California generally had pretty low renewables penetration and it also had extremely expensive renewables. This was sort of a notorious problem. It even remains a problem today in California, which is that there were long-term contracts signed with extremely expensive renewable generation. And a lot of those long-term contracts, PG&E is still dragging them around. So, from your perspective, from a CCA perspective, you can say, "Well, look, we can, if we opt out and procure our own power, we can opt out of being saddled with those long-term contracts."
We can opt out and just buy like cheap RECs, or even just buying new power. Like by 2015, just buying new power, you could buy it at like half the price of what you were paying with those long-term contracts. In other words, there's a very obvious reason why a CCA could get lower prices than PG&E back then when it was starting out. Like, I always understood why they had cheaper power. It's like, "Yeah, PG&E is stuck with these horrible contracts," but it seems like that should have kind of worked itself out by now.
And yet, you still got a little bit of a price premium over PG&E. So, how and why, and do you expect that price advantage to endure?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, there's a couple of things that aren't quite right with that line of thinking. And it's understandable because I think from the beginning, we've had to correct a lot of misinformation that's been put out, sometimes by the utilities, sometimes by others who don't want to see the change that's been happening in the market. But first of all, I want to correct that when we entered the market, the cost of renewables was very high. It was still very high. And we entered into quite a few long-term, 25-year, 20-year contracts for solar, wind, waste, and landfill waste to energy.
We entered into those contracts too. And those contracts are still in our portfolio. So, it's not just, you know, we might hear that the IOUs, PG&E in particular, might say that they're the martyr that helped, you know, bear that load, but that's really not accurate. And the primary reason, you know, in addition to our portfolios which are similarly situated, PG&E and all IOUs in California have access to what's called the Power Charge Indifference Adjustment or the PCIA, which is an exit fee. And it accounts for any above-market costs of power that the utility bought on behalf of the customer before they departed.
And that PCIA is on every customer's bill for probably the next 40 years; it doesn't fall off quickly.
David Roberts
Oh, it's not a one and done?
Dawn Weisz
Oh no, it is not a one-and-done. And it includes the utility-owned generation; the UOG is part of it. And that's one reason it lasts for so long.
David Roberts
Yeah, let me clarify that quickly. So, when I'm a local government and I go to PG&E and I say, "I want to opt out," right, they charge me a fee for exiting the utility setup. And that fee is supposed to cover the difference between the market price of the power I'm going to procure and the extra cost that they have to pay by virtue of being the utility. So, the idea is that you shouldn't be able to opt out of those extra costs. So, you'll have to pay them over time through this fee.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, and to put a little bit of a finer point on it, it's really the assumption that is made that they could sell that extra power in the market. What is the value of that power today? If the power is worth more today than it was yesterday or when they bought it, the PCIA could actually become negative. And we've seen that happen in the last couple of years. The PCIA has gotten very low.
David Roberts
Interesting.
Dawn Weisz
Because power supply costs were really going up. But when you see the opposite, when you see power costs low, the PCIA tends to be high because the value of that power has gone down. But either way, the IOUs are made whole. And we would argue that the playing field is tilted a bit in their direction. They're being made more than whole.
David Roberts
Well then, I'm even more confused. So, you are buying power off the same wholesale market that they're buying power off of, and you're paying this extra fee, yet somehow you're getting cheaper power. So, why and how long will that last?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, well, as a local government agency, we're a not-for-profit. We do not pay shareholder profits. We tend to have more modest compensation structures, salaries. And we entered the world in a competitive market and we are very careful with what types of power supply contracts we enter into because we do not have a guaranteed cost of recovery the way the investor-owned utilities do. So we're more efficient. I think we are really driven to find those good counterparties that can supply renewables to us. And I think we work hard to keep our prices low for customers.
David Roberts
And so how much cheaper is your power than PG&E's like currently?
Dawn Weisz
Well, our power isn't always cheaper than PG&E, and we don't have a guarantee because we can't control PG&E's rates. But our power does tend to be cheaper because of the reasons I just mentioned. About 75% of the time, customers get a bill savings with us. And if you add up all the bill savings since we launched in 2010, it adds up to $97.5 million saved for customers on their generation.
David Roberts
Yeah, I guess, I just still don't completely get it because from what I've been able to tell, pretty much all the CCAs are beating — I mean, there's like 25 CCAs in California as far as I can tell. Like most of them, almost all of them are beating PG&E on the price of power. And it's just amazing to me, I guess, like they're all smarter and more efficient than the actual professionals whose job it is to do this all the time. It's just, it's puzzling.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, keep in mind that we are run by professionals too. We pull from the same market that PG&E does to hire folks. In fact, we have several former PG&E employees with us and other great utility folks working with us. So, we have the professionalism, we have the experience. We're years old now. We just celebrated our 15-year anniversary. But I think the key is that we're not paying shareholder profits and we're publicly accountable. We're managed by a public board. So, when it comes to raising rates, it's not as easy as going into the CPUC. I think often there's kind of a "check the box" exercise.
David Roberts
So you think it's actually easier to get a rate boost through the CPUC than it is through one of these municipal sort of boards?
Dawn Weisz
I do.
David Roberts
That's funny. That's really funny. I mean, sad but funny.
Dawn Weisz
Well, yeah. I mean, think about it. All local government agency meetings are open to the public.
David Roberts
Yeah, right.
Dawn Weisz
They're subject to the Brown Act. And so, we have members of the public giving us input, giving us advice. We're accountable to the local community. So, every dollar really matters. And we think carefully about how we can provide the best service at the most efficient price point.
David Roberts
One other technical question I'm trying to figure out, sort of like where your authority ends and the utilities begin. Like, you are out there running distributed energy resource programs, doing stuff with EV charging. You've got green loan programs where you're doing cheap loans to low-income customers. You've got VPPs you're starting up now. All of which I want to talk about later. But like, what can you not do? What is reserved for the utility? Like, where are the edges of your power and authority?
Dawn Weisz
I think the primary difference between what we can do and what the utilities can do is transmission. The transmission and the interconnection really need to be done by the investor-owned utility or someone else that has the ability to do that. But we are able to offer all sorts of programs: energy efficiency, electric vehicle charging, our virtual power plant program. We do a lot in the multifamily sector and we do a lot through an equity lens. There's a lot of untapped energy efficiency out there in the low-income sector. So, we really focus on that.
David Roberts
So, all the utilities do, once a CCA has sort of claimed this right to buy the power, is just maintaining the grid and just charging customers for grid costs and interconnecting people to the grid. Everything else in terms of interfacing with customers is on you guys.
Dawn Weisz
Correct, yeah.
David Roberts
Got it. And so, I don't want to spend too much time on the history here because you've logged quite a bit of it at this point. But I do think it's sort of interesting and telling to talk a little bit about the early days, all the ways the utility tried to prevent you from existing in the first place, then tried to kill you once you existed, and then the sort of, like, hostility. I'm just sort of curious, like, the utility's attitude towards you at the beginning and how it's evolved over time.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, great question. And, you know, I will say it was a very interesting ride, you know, getting things launched. There really wasn't a roadmap for how to launch a CCA in California.
David Roberts
Were you the first state to legalize these things?
Dawn Weisz
No.
David Roberts
Oh, no, it was Massachusetts. Right. I did a podcast.
Dawn Weisz
Massachusetts and Ohio had programs. So, yeah, California's enabling legislation passed in 2002. It was AB117 by Carole Migden. And it took us a long time. You know, I was with the county of Marin at that time, and we supported the bill, and then we wrote some grants to do some analysis and see if we'd be able to launch a CCA program, really, because we had set some carbon reduction goals, and we were looking for ways that we could reduce our carbon impact without really having a budget to do that.
David Roberts
And you're at the mercy, you find yourself at the mercy of your utility, basically.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the buildings were a big piece of our carbon emissions. And, you know, we looked at, "Well, we've only got 13% renewables in the mix. How can we really move the needle here?" And, you know, so lo and behold, this bill comes along that would allow local governments to redirect where we're getting our power from and run it through a local agency. And we thought, "Well, gosh, this could be a relatively small change that could have a really big impact." And it seemed really promising and compelling, but it also was daunting.
And, you know, we didn't know if it could work because it had never been done before. So, you know, we did some analysis, and over many years, analysis and peer reviews kept coming back looking good. And so we partnered with the other local governments and the water districts and a few other interested large businesses and started developing a business plan. And it was around the time we were developing that business plan that PG&E got really engaged in trying to stop us. They would show up at our local, you know, small little city council meetings when we'd be presenting on the idea, and they would have someone get up and present kind of a counter presentation on "What are all the risks?" And, "Oh, it's really not going to work out. And this is a really bad idea."
David Roberts
I'm just curious, like, what were they saying the risks are? Like, what was their — I can imagine a substantive case against CCAs, but I'm guessing that what they were stressing were just scary stuff. So, what scary stuff did they try to scare people with?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, well, you know, they had the not-too-distant energy crisis in the 2000s to point to. And that was scary, you know, for local government agencies' reps who weren't doing energy yet and weren't eager to add something new to their list. You know, PG&E talked about the high cost of power, the volatility in the market, the fact that there might be blackouts, and, you know, "What if things went wrong?" And, you know, "You really don't have the expertise to do this." So those were some of the things that they said. Since then, we've developed a more collaborative relationship.
David Roberts
Wait, before you skip past. You launched in 2010, and didn't they then immediately launch a ballot initiative to try to kill you right after that?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah. As part of our process of launching, PG&E put $45 million into a ballot initiative called Prop 16.
David Roberts
I'm guessing you did not have $45 million to counter that.
Dawn Weisz
We did not. And we also had to adhere to the law which says that local government agencies can't spend public money on ballot initiatives.
David Roberts
Oh, funny.
Dawn Weisz
So, we were kind of in a fight with our hands behind our back. But PG&E did spend a lot of money on that campaign and set up a number of other hurdles, including a phone banking campaign through a third party that called, as far as I can tell, every customer in our county.
David Roberts
$45 million will get you a lot of phone calls.
Dawn Weisz
Well, that was in addition. They spent $4 million just in our county on phone banking. And mailers, they sent out a lot of mailers. One of the funny ones said that MCE is a huge government bureaucracy and would be serving customers with coal and that the prices would be double what customers are paying now. And I looked around and it was me and one part-time intern. And I was like, "Gosh, where is this big government bureaucracy? I really could use a little help."
David Roberts
I mean, it's very rich for PG&E to come along and be like, "You don't want a big bureaucracy. There might be blackouts, power might be expensive." Like, yeah, don't throw me in that tar pit, PG&E.
Dawn Weisz
So, there were a lot of tactics used. There was kind of interference with the banks we were trying to work with. There was interference with the water districts we were trying to work with. There were threats of California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) lawsuits for buying renewable energy, which is also a bit rich. But, you know, a lot of scare tactics and a lot of misinformation that we had to counter. And the ballot initiative narrowly failed. We actually had to speed up our launch in order to complete the one-month process of enrolling customers, our first set of customers to be completed before the vote.
Because we determined that if the vote went the wrong way, we might not be able to legitimately continue.
David Roberts
So, the way it works is, you send something to all the customers in an area like this and there's like a checkbox — as I understand it, it was opt-out, not opt-in. So, you sent out a mailer saying basically, "If you don't want to be involved in this new CCA thing, check here to opt out." Is that right?
Dawn Weisz
Yes, we send five mailers, two before and three after.
David Roberts
And do people, I'm guessing, just knowing what I know about human behavior and behavioral science, I'm guessing most people did not opt out. Like, what was the, what were the percentages on that first signup?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, on the first signup, we saw about an 80%, 83% participation rate. Since then — and I'll fast forward because after we launched, we worked with the legislature to pass a code of conduct that prevents misinformation from being sent around by the utilities — we've enrolled other communities since that time. As you noted, we've got 38 member communities now. We've seen much higher participation rates in our other communities where that negative marketing campaign didn't occur. We see around a 93% participation rate in those communities. And it's interesting because that marketing was a long time ago, but the effects have persisted.
We've noticed the communities that received that negative marketing back in 2010 still have lower participation rates.
David Roberts
Oh, interesting. Propaganda works, I guess.
Dawn Weisz
I guess.
David Roberts
So, the people who opt out, they just stay with PG&E, continue paying the rates they were paying before. Nothing changes for them, basically. And so, I guess I'm wondering, like, I'm opting out of this program. My neighbor's opting in the next month. My neighbor gets a cheaper power bill than I do and gets all the same electricity. Why don't I then opt in the following month? You know what I mean? Like, why are people still opting out? If you're offering cheaper prices to the people who are opting in, what is keeping people away anymore?
Do you do any sort of opinion research about this kind of thing?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I think this will probably come as little surprise to you and most of your audience, but electricity bills are really confusing, and it's hard for customers to decipher what's going on. So, a lot of the calls that we get from customers are, "Hey, my bill is higher than last month. I don't understand why." Often, we get a lot of those calls in the winter when folks are using more gas and they don't quite realize, or "Oh, well, did anything change recently?" "Well, I did buy an EV." And, okay, well, that might be why.
But, you know, folks don't spend a lot of time digging into the weeds or comparing with their neighbor or, you know, knowing what the options are out there. We try to make it as easy as possible. You know, as a public agency, we're all about transparency. So, we've got a cost comparison tool on our website where folks can figure out what they would be paying with PG&E versus MCE. We include that exit fee, of course, so they can figure it out. But a lot of folks don't want to spend the time doing that.
Or, they might want to just set it and forget it, and not revisit every year to see if they could save a little more.
David Roberts
So, explain why PG&E wouldn't want a community to break off and form a CCA. I mean, I guess in some sense it's intuitive, like they're losing customers, but they're a monopoly and they get a guaranteed rate of return. Like, what's it to them? I guess I'd like a little bit more explanation. Like, what is their beef? Why don't they want people doing this?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I share your curiosity. I'm not certain, and I think there's a difference of opinion depending on who you talk to at PG&E. I have spoken to folks who have since retired and felt that PG&E's approach maybe wasn't the right one. So, I don't know. You know, it might just come down to control. And I think that we have proven that a different business model works.
David Roberts
Well, it is humiliating if you're running this thing and like town after town is opting out and providing their customers with cheaper power than you are providing. Like once is one thing, twice, three times. But like, if 25 separate towns all bail out and then they all end up better off, it's embarrassing, if nothing else, I guess. You know what I mean? It's like, it is embarrassing. It's like a big signal to the entire world that you're not doing your job very well, I guess.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, possibly. And I, you know, and I don't want to be disparaging PG&E, you know, too much because I think they do a lot of things well and we collaborate with them in a lot of ways. But I do think that, you know, we have opened up a new way of doing energy for the public good in California by saying, "Hey, we can double the amount of renewables and keep prices the same. Hey, we can offer a 100% renewable option at a small premium." And folks signed up for it.
David Roberts
Again, like PG&E's been telling people, "No, you can't" for years and years. And then you just go do it. I think that's part of the explanation for what they're up to. But I should say I'm piling on PG&E too much too. I will say they have changed an enormous amount since 2010, since your launch. And as you say, they've launched lots of cool programs. They're doing lots of cool things now. So, I'm sort of curious, what is your current relationship? Are you closely involved with one another?
Are you sort of on parallel tracks? Like, do you work with one another? What's the current relationship look like?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I think that we work really well together on customer engagement because we see the customers as our shared customers. We have a great point person at PG&E that we meet with on a regular basis and compare notes on issues that are coming up. Sometimes their call center will provide inaccurate information that we can help correct, and vice versa. We compare notes, making sure that their team has accurate information about what we're doing so that they can be accurate with customers. I feel like that part of the relationship and the logistics in interfacing with customers is going really well.
I think there are areas of improvement. You know, one area you touched on earlier is there's a lot of load growth in California.
David Roberts
Yeah, that's my very next question, actually.
Dawn Weisz
Well, maybe it's a good segue, but we aren't getting informed by PG&E when they have big loads anticipated, like data centers.
David Roberts
Interesting.
Dawn Weisz
We kind of need to know that. We're buying the gen. So, that's a bit of a sore spot right now that we're hopefully going to be able to work through.
David Roberts
So does that mean you're doing your own load forecasts separately than PG&E?
Dawn Weisz
We always have. Yes, we do our own load forecasts. We're looking at weather.
David Roberts
You would think they would share that. I mean, you would think. I mean, you would think the CPUC would tell them to share that.
Dawn Weisz
Yes, agreed.
David Roberts
But they don't. So, they don't have to share their load forecast. So, the way it currently works, a data center can go to PG&E, work out a contract, and connect to the grid. And you find out about it when they connect to the grid?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, something like that. We're still getting the timing down. And one other area where I think we can do a better job is we have a lot of programs, and we would like to know which programs PG&E has that they're already offering to which customers so that we're not spending time double enrolling customers. It's not efficient for us to be reaching out to customers they are already working with, and vice versa. We, of course, will share with them who we're reaching out to and who we're working with. But we'd like to have more of an equal exchange there so that we could both be more efficient and keep costs down for customers and keep confusion down.
David Roberts
Right, well, let's segue then, because how are you thinking about — everybody in the electricity biz is grappling with this right now — how are you thinking about this supposed giant demand growth that is impending? Like for one thing, are you serving areas where there are likely to be lots of data centers cited?
Dawn Weisz
We have the potential for data centers in our service area. We have some areas where there are mothballed fossil facilities that could be a good location for that type of thing. So, yeah, we certainly do. And there's certainly a lot of demand and load in our area. We're looking at ways that we can serve that load with a lot of load flexibility.
David Roberts
Yeah, yeah. I was going to say, you know, you're not in control of the grid or T&D costs, as you say. Mostly D costs, if we're being honest, T&D cost is like 75% distribution cost. You're not in charge of that. So, you can't directly reduce those costs for your customers, but you can do demand-side stuff that enables them to generate, store, and manage more of their own power and thus just require less distribution.
Dawn Weisz
Exactly.
David Roberts
So, talk a little bit about what you're doing along those lines.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, so we have a number of load-shifting programs that are aimed at aggregating load shift, being able to bid it into CAISO, and reduce the amount of supply that we need to put on the grid, particularly during the peak hours that happen in the evening.
David Roberts
VPPs, right. And this, and this is all in California, this is all legally — like you don't need any rule changes or law changes. You can form a VPP and bid into the wholesale market today?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, we sure can. And I think there are some structural simplifications that could happen that could make it simpler, but we'll get there. And we're working with CAISO and the regulatory bodies to try and streamline. Practicing with different program elements is a great way to figure out where the pain points are, where adjustment is needed. But we have a bi-directional EV charging tariff, for example, we have a battery storage tariff, which by its nature would be bi-directional as well, as long as we have the protocol set up to allow for that at CAISO. We have an MCE Sync program which is managed EV charging.
And that program has been really successful. We've been able to shift 96% of participants' EV charging off of peak periods. And we have thousands of customers in that program, so that's helping them and us avoid buying extra power during that peak. And like I said, we bought a lot of expensive solar back in the day. So we have a lot of solar on our grid during the middle of the day. So we're trying to make the charging happen then as much as possible. We're putting in a lot of workplace charging, multifamily charging and that sort of thing.
David Roberts
When you say "we're working on" you just provide incentives, like the customer buys it and you help defray the cost, or you buy it and install it in customer houses, what does that mean? How do you encourage batteries? Are you just like trying to make them slightly cheaper or are you actually going beyond that?
Dawn Weisz
We're going a little beyond that, both for EVs and for batteries. So, we will often provide technical support if there's a need, particularly in sectors that have the need, like multifamily and some small businesses where they can't access the bigger rebates that are set up for bigger businesses. So, we'll go in and help connect customers with technical support to plan out their EV charging and their battery installation. And then we'll also provide incentives. Sometimes the incentives will cover most of the costs. Sometimes the customer will have to pitch in a bit, but over time they come out ahead within a year or two.
So, we try to do a little bit of both to move the needle.
David Roberts
I'm curious about the VPP thing, how far along that is, do you have a VPP up and running and selling power into the market?
Dawn Weisz
We have a VPP up and running, and we are a month or two away from doing our first bid into CAISO. So, we're at a really exciting, pivotal point.
David Roberts
Can I ask about the size you're going to sort of launch with?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, so our target is 100 residential customers; these are homes. And a few of them — I just have to add this element to it — because we're doing this in Richmond and we've partnered with the Richmond Community Foundation to buy dilapidated or abandoned homes and turn them into smart homes and offer them up to first-time home buyers to make sure that the frontline communities, which in many cases have really borne the brunt of the difficult impacts of energy for many years, we want them to be at the forefront of getting some of the benefits of the green energy transition. So, we're offering these smart homes up to these customers and they have mini splits, solar battery, EV chargers, efficient induction cooktops, efficient washer, dryer, and heat pump water heaters.
David Roberts
And no gas hookup, I'm guessing.
Dawn Weisz
No gas hookup. That's right. And we're using Home Area Network (HAN) devices to control the load, and we allow customers to override our signals if they need to. If it's a hot day or they need to charge their EV and avoid our signal, that's fine. But, you know, as long as they're sticking with our signal, there will be some financial benefit to them, and we split the benefit between them and us to make it fair.
David Roberts
I mean, I'm sure, I'm guessing it's too early to know, but do you have any sense of the scale of that benefit to the customer? Like on a monthly basis, is this like a couple of dollars, you know, $20, $100? I have no sense of what's possible.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, we think it could be between $15 and $20 a month, but at some times of the year, it could go much higher. And it really depends on how much load they have in the home. These are small homes without a lot of fancy equipment. So it's really the scale that's going to make a difference here. And that's why we want to grow our VPP beyond this hundred home pilot to encompass a lot of bigger chunks of load throughout our service area.
David Roberts
Yeah, sort of curious. Like, 100 homes is clearly a, you know, a starter pack, an experiment to make sure it works. Is your thought, idea, vision here that eventually something close to all the homes in your service area will be participating in this kind of thing? Is that where you see this going eventually?
Dawn Weisz
That would be our vision. That would certainly be our goal.
David Roberts
And then, would that really allow you to suppress those peaks? I mean, once you have over half a million customers you're currently representing, that's a lot of potential load.
Dawn Weisz
Absolutely.
David Roberts
At this point, you are pretty empowered. The legal structure is set. What, at this point, would be helpful from either the California legislature or the CPUC? Do you have a list of asks to either of those bodies?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, our number one ask is maintaining local control and CCA autonomy because we've really been able to lead the way for the creation of more than 25 CCAs across the state. What sets us apart as CCAs is that we're governed by a board of elected officials with a unique ability to tailor our programs and services to meet the needs locally of our customers and our service area.
David Roberts
It's kind of like you're getting all the good bits of being a municipal utility without the hassle of maintaining the grid. It kind of seems like the best of both worlds, a little bit.
Dawn Weisz
I don't know about that. I mean, we really are constrained. You know, our local government members come to us all the time saying, "How can we speed up getting this facility connected?" You know, we have a hospital or, you know, an affordable housing complex.
David Roberts
You can buy it, but you can't interconnect it. You're still waiting for the utility to do that.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah. And that has a real impact on our electrification programs. You know, we're trying to help folks switch to heat pump water heaters and all the other great gadgets that you talk about on your show.
David Roberts
Has there been any discussion in taking that further step and becoming a full-on municipal utility?
Dawn Weisz
There's been some discussion. It would certainly be a lot more to bite off. I know that some of our sister CCAs have been working towards that for many years and have run into a lot of hurdles.
David Roberts
Yeah, well, I think everybody heard about Boulder's experience and has been slightly daunted away from that.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I mean, ultimately, there isn't really a level playing field, and that can make it challenging to consider.
David Roberts
So when you say protect their autonomy, is there some current threat, what are the current dangers that you're facing, the biggest challenges facing you right now?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I think sometimes, well-informed or well-intentioned regulations can have unintended consequences that really constrain innovation. And, you know, this is a theme I've heard about on a number of your shows where it really resonates with me. When making a rule, sometimes you think you know the right answer, so you say, "Oh, just do this." But instead, what you should say is, "Hey, here's the goal we want to get to. Please avoid doing X, Y, and Z and figure out the best way to do it." We often get pushed down a specific path that isn't the most efficient path.
And instead, I think the way to set rules is to kind of put out a high-level standard. I think the Renewables Portfolio Standard (RPS) is a good example of a great standard.
David Roberts
Right. Well, you say, "We want X outcome."
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, right.
David Roberts
You regulate the outcome and you say, "You figure out how to get there."
Dawn Weisz
Exactly.
David Roberts
Every regulated entity in the world wants that. I don't know why, regulators, but for some reason, regulators really don't like doing it that way.
Dawn Weisz
That's right. And what you get if you do it that way is innovation, creativity, flexibility, and ultimately affordability. Because we're always looking for the cheapest way to do it.
David Roberts
Is there a handy example offline where you feel like the CPUC or the legislature has sort of gone overboard on specificity?
Dawn Weisz
Sure, I can give two high-level examples. One is when we get procurement mandates to buy a certain technology within a certain timeframe, say within two years, everyone has to buy this large amount of geothermal, for example. Well, if you own geothermal, all of a sudden your negotiations might be put on hold and your prices might go off double or triple. So that's not a smart way to do it. Instead, regulation could say, "Hey, we want this amount of reliable clean energy that generates during these hours." So that's one example of a regulation that causes non-affordability in the market, causes prices to go up a lot, and also causes constraints in the market because everyone's trying to get the same thing within a very small time period.
Another example is when load-serving entities are told to enact real-time rates that have these very strict parameters, using certain named databases and following protocols that really aren't the most efficient protocols. That sort of requirement eats up a lot of time and prevents us from doing the things we're already doing, which are working better and are more efficient.
David Roberts
So, what would it look like then for the California legislature to grant you more autonomy? Are you talking about something like CCAs are exempt from XYZ regulations as long as they achieve XYZ targets? What would it look like to boost your autonomy?
Dawn Weisz
Really, what I'm saying is that we don't want to have any more encroachment on our autonomy. I think having a clear standard like an RPS, for example, is a great way to keep us all rowing in the right direction. And if there is going to be a new standard set, give the market some time to adapt to it. Say, "Hey, in four years we want everyone to do X and in 10 years we want everyone to do Y." And then we might meet those standards. You know, for example, the current target for renewables for the state, the 2030 target, we met it 13 years early because our board believes in getting those renewables on the grid as fast as possible.
David Roberts
I feel like the state should say, "If you get to this target early, you get a treat, which is exemption from all further regulations." You did it. Clearly, you know what you're doing.
Dawn Weisz
Yes, yes, good one. I like that.
David Roberts
So, maybe from the legislature and the CPUC, a lighter hand and more sort of outcome-oriented regulation. What about from incumbent utilities? What would be helpful to get from them?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I think better information flow would be great, particularly around customers and programs, and more collaboration. You know, I feel like the VPP that we're working on is very, it's cutting edge, and that can sometimes be painful because, you know, there are rules that haven't yet been set up to align with what we need to do. Like, as an example, right now, every time we want to enroll an asset like someone's water heater, we're going through a very complex process that was really set up for a large generator.
David Roberts
Oh, you're talking about small-scale interconnection to the distribution grid.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, and I think that we could partner with the IOUs in a collaborative way to scale up the programs that we want to see succeed. And you know, in my mind, it's about leadership. You know, I think leadership isn't about the spotlight, it's about responsibility. And when you're in a position of power where you have the ability to influence the way people are using their power and having to pay for their power, it's your responsibility to do the very, very, very best that you can to keep it affordable and make it work efficiently. And there's not time for, there shouldn't be time for holding information hostage and not just collaborating openly to try and find the best solution.
You know, we're in a climate crisis and I think we need all hands on deck, working together in parallel, to find the best end result.
David Roberts
Yeah, I did a whole podcast in August of last year about the data that utilities get from smart meters and stuff like that, and their unwillingness to share that with VPP companies and all sorts of other entities that sort of need that information to plan their businesses or to plan their futures. I think this is a widespread problem, the sort of unwillingness of utilities to share information.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, and what the result is that we are having to physically go to each of our customers' homes and businesses and put a HAN device in their facility so that we can read their load and control their load because the smart meters really aren't smart. We don't get information in real time. We get information with about a 72-hour lag.
David Roberts
Yeah, that's hilarious.
Dawn Weisz
It's not even in hourly increments.
David Roberts
Yes, the failure of the first generation of smart meters is... I should probably do a podcast completely on that at some point. Yeah, I've just been doing some podcasts recently on people who are basically inventing devices that are either collars that go on the meter or sort of adjuncts to the meter to sort of boost the function of the meter. Like what it can know and what it can do.
Dawn Weisz
Yes, I heard your Span panel a couple of weeks ago. That was fantastic. And that's one example where I was excited to hear that PG&E is interested in that. But I'm frustrated to hear they haven't done more already. Like, you know, if you have this huge volume of customers, you have power, you have control. And I feel like it's our responsibility as load-serving entities to find those good outcomes and get them going.
David Roberts
What about CAISO, the grid manager? Is there anything in particular that CAISO could do that you would find helpful?
Dawn Weisz
Well, I found CAISO to be really innovative and a great partner, and I feel like they're always looking for the best solution to keep things flowing well, often with an eye towards economics. I think they understand the market because they're in there every day working on it. So, I've really enjoyed collaborating with CAISO. I think they are looking for ways to grow the VPP interface from a pilot-based model to a scalable model and to break down the silos. I think right now there are a few distinct ways you can engage with them with your VPP, but there's not really a way to optimize a device to move across platforms.
And one day, it might behave as an exporter, and on one day, it might behave as absorbing load at a different time. And so, being able to optimize is, I think, the next frontier for CAISO, and I'm so happy to see that they're already working on that and we're excited to be partnering with them.
David Roberts
Are you engaged at all in the discussion about a shared Western grid? You know, because there's no, you know, CAISO is just California and there's all these, I forget how many in the west, but there's like dozens of different little balancing areas in the west and there's all this talk about trying to create a larger western ISO. Are you engaged in that? Would that help you at all? Are you involved in that discussion?
Dawn Weisz
The discussion around regional coordination is really a discussion about affordability. And we're very engaged and we're very supportive. I am worried that if it doesn't move forward, California is going to become a bit of an island that is going to make it much more costly to serve our load and use our resources efficiently. We have some of that expensive solar power in our portfolio in the Central Valley being curtailed, and we're losing several million dollars every year or every month to account for that. And if there were places for that energy to go when it's not needed in California, that would help with affordability.
And if there were more resources for us to access across the grid. You know, already the trading across states is saving $800 million every year on California's electric bills. With regional coordination, we would see 10% less curtailment of California's solar and wind. That's a lot of dollars. It would also reduce the use of in-state fossil gas power by 31%.
David Roberts
Oh wow.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, so that would help us reduce our GHGs and also improve our air quality and health outcomes for communities living near those plants. And it would give us access to 25 GW of added supply that we could tap into during extreme weather events when our grid is stressed.
David Roberts
Yeah, of all the difficult decisions in electricity, just like hooking up grids over larger geographic areas, is just such a no-brainer. It's just such a... It's good, it's good for literally everyone.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I agree.
David Roberts
Final question. When I checked in on CCAs in 2022, there were 10 states that had enabled them. I checked back on that. It's still 10 states in 2025. Two-part question: Is there some momentum for expanding these things? Is there still a push to get them passed in new areas? Is that still ongoing? And then two, what advice would you give city leaders in a city or town that is thinking about doing this, that is thinking about launching their own CCA?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, well, to answer your first question, there is still an interest in other states regarding CCA enabling legislation. There was definitely a lot of buzz around this back in 2018 through 2020, and sometimes it can be driven by the success of some communities. The word spreads and that can spark others. I'm not aware of big pushes right now, but I do tend to stay a bit more focused on what's happening in California. One thing I'll note though is that the California model is a bit different from some of the other states in that the local government agency is really holding the reins, managing the budget, doing the procurement.
You know, we have 75 different energy suppliers that we work with, so we're putting together our own portfolio.
David Roberts
How big is your staff right now? How big is the MCE operation?
Dawn Weisz
Yes, about 100. We have a little over 100 staff. And then we also have some external support on the legal and procurement side and a few other areas. But we do all of our procurement. You know, we schedule our resources, we schedule with CAISO, we manage our budget, we manage our credit ratings.
David Roberts
So, in some other states where there are CCAs, CCAs are not that empowered. They have somewhat less authority than that, as I understand it.
Dawn Weisz
Well, I wouldn't say they necessarily have less authority, but they often are using a third-party vendor to handle everything for them: to handle their customer interface, their customer acquisition, their billing, and their procurement, all through a third-party shop. And so, that's a bit of a more volatile model and it doesn't allow for as much continuity as we've seen in California. Because in California, these are local government agencies that are built to stay and we've really redirected a revenue stream that exists in all of our communities. And I guess this gets to your second question, which is, you know, what would we tell someone at a local government agency that doesn't have a CCA?
David Roberts
Because you are making it sound like, you know, like if I'm a small town, you know, whatever mayor, and you're describing like, "Oh, we're, I've got 100 people and we're procuring and scheduling," you know, it sounds daunting.
Dawn Weisz
Yes, but it pays for itself if you do it well. You know, if you're hiring experts and professionals that know how to do their jobs, then you can run a load-serving entity very efficiently and effectively. And you know, with a strong credit rating and with a large budget, you know, we have an $800 million a year budget and a lot of that goes to energy. We've built up reserves and developed those strong credit ratings as a result. And that allows us to buy power at a cheaper level than entities that don't have as strong of a credit rating.
David Roberts
So what's step one then for my little small town mayor? How do you get into this?
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, well, we have developed a trade association across the state called CalCCA that is really a connection point for any local governments that are interested in community choice and want to get involved. We share everything, and that's what I really love about working in the CCA space or the local government space. We share our marketing information. Here's our business plan. Here's how we address this compliance obligation. We have working groups and teams across the CCAs that really help each other out. We have a list of best practices, and we have ongoing calls and gatherings where we're sharing information and helping each other.
And we don't have to reinvent the wheel as a result. I can learn from one of my sister CCAs.
David Roberts
Yeah, I was sort of wondering. I'm guessing it's a lot easier now than — I mean, obviously, it's easier to do it now than it was when you were starting.
Dawn Weisz
Yeah, I think it is because there's such a great network across the state.
David Roberts
Awesome. Thank you so much. This is really fascinating. I feel like these should be better known. A lot of people out there in the world wish that there was something like this, and there is something like this. You know, you could have this in your state, theoretically, if you did some organizing and pushing for it.
Dawn Weisz
Exactly.
David Roberts
Thank you so much.
Dawn Weisz
Thank you. My pleasure.
David Roberts
Thank you for listening to Volts. It takes a village to make this podcast work. Shout out, especially, to my super producer, Kyle McDonald, who makes me and my guests sound smart every week. And it is all supported entirely by listeners like you. So, if you value conversations like this, please consider joining our community of paid subscribers at volts.wtf. Or, leaving a nice review, or telling a friend about Volts. Or all three. Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time.
